Which lifeboat would you choose?

[George Lorton]

Hi Nboals, No worries, i make mistakes like that all the time, i guess that is why nobody replies to my posts. [wink]

All,
I would leave Hichens and Brown to work out their own problems, if I was able to get on a lifeboat I would make sure it was Number 1, those fat cat swells could do with a lesson or two in CPR. They would get more done then crying over their lost pay and boohooing over Miss Francatelli's nightgown.

Lady Duff Gordon: "There is your beautiful Nightdress gone..." Give me a break here are 15 hundred people and she is gabbing about a stupid nightdress.... I believe she said it too given that Lady Duff Gordon was a clothes designer and that is the kind of empty headed comment expected from her I guess, yes she might of been in shock when she said it but still she had it in her to be more of a hero then other women given that she started a business from scratch but does she go back and try to save anybody even after the cries have died down a bit, no she doesn't. I have say that I don't feel sorry for the Duff Gordon's or their crew that they had with them in that boat. If I was with them and survived I would of changed my name and disappeared from Shame..... You don't leave folks to die when you are sitting in a boat that can seat 28 and only has 12 in it,.

[VW1956]

Hello nboal. Hold on a minute there. I didn't say that I would help throw Robert Hichens overboard. I said that I would help Sally throw (I've forgotten who) overboard so that he couldn't throw Robert Hichens overboard. Not sure of the family lines but if Robert Hichens goes then we might not ever get to meet Sally. And that would be sad. Ken.

[nboal]

Hi nboals, What do you have against MEN nboals? You were badly treated by one?

I have absolutely nothing against men. People are individuals. I have some thoughts about men or women who behave badly.

I would not chuck Ismay back nor chuck Hichens over board. Molly brown were the one that were causing trouble.

Boat 6 you would find out the truth on really what happen between Hichens and Molly.

It would be extrodanary to meet you people back in 1912 in a lifeboat lol.

Margaret (Molly) Brown was only trying to get Boat 6 to go back and rescue some of the swimmers who were crying for help. Hichens was swearing up a storm and telling Ms. Brown to shut up. Major Peuchen, who was also on the boat, was trying to calm Hichens down and then Hichens starting yelling at him.

As for Ismay, I'm still not convinced that he didn't have time to go search for some other passengers, particularly steerage passengers. He could have asked (I think that it was Murdoch) to hold the boat for around 5 minutes or so while he found other passengers. I believe that he could have found at least 1 or 2 passengers to take places on the boat.

[nboal]

If I was on the Titanic I would probably be to busy trying to get third class kids in boats. Boat 1 could of used some kids since it just had 12 people in it, all adults too. I am sure there were a few other boats that could of used some more pint sized passengers as well but boat 1 springs most readily to my mind.

This is my problem with Ismay. I believe that he had time to go search for a few steerage passengers who were just making their way up to the boat deck and helped them into Collapsible C. Instead, he stepped into Collapsible C and saved himself.

[Aly Jones]

Instead, he stepped into Collapsible C and saved himself.

But nboals, What's wrong with that? why should he? Ismay was a male passenger, he could not afford to go around searching for passengers. The officer asked' any more men? he was carrying a 1st class passenger ticket, he had all the right in the world to obey the officers commands that requested men allowing to enter a lifeboat---the officer requested men were aloud to hop aboard his lifeboat. Ismay committed no crime. Men were lucky enough to have at least one officer letting men in a lifeboat, and If not, we would had more casualties that night.

It sounds like you think all 1500 lifeboats spots capacity were only for women and children only . First, you dislike Hichens because he had a tiff with a women Molly Brown because Hichens never went back, but only one lifeboat went back.Secondly, you hate Ismay because he was a male that survive.

When your own life is at stake, you don't worry about strangers lives but your own. Pretty sure Ismay were thinking this at that time. I would had too thought of myself and my immediate family in a life and death situation.

[nboal]

Instead, he stepped into Collapsible C and saved himself.

But nboals, What's wrong with that? why should he? Ismay was a male passenger, he could not afford to go around searching for passengers. The officer asked' any more men? he was carrying a 1st class passenger ticket, he had all the right in the world to obey the officers commands that requested men allowing to enter a lifeboat---the officer requested men were aloud to hop aboard his lifeboat. Ismay committed no crime. Men were lucky enough to have at least one officer letting men in a lifeboat, and If not, we would had more casualties that night.

It wasn't a matter of Ismay's gender -- of course, if no women were present and there were men available, then if an officer requests male passengers (of whatever class) to get into a lifeboat, then there is no blame for that at all. But what does matter is the fiction that Ismay was a mere passenger. He didn't pay for his ticket; he got it because of his position as the owner of White Star Lines. And as thus, he truly was more like a White Star Lines official than he was a paying passenger. After all, Murdoch didn't try to get into Collapsible C, telling himself that there were no more passengers immediately available so why shouldn't he be allowed.

It sounds like you think all 1500 lifeboats spots capacity were only for women and children only .

You are full of erroneous generalizations about my views. I have never stated that all 1500 lifeboat spots should be only for women and children. It was up to the officers in charge. Captain Smith said "women and children first," not "women and children only." Lightoller interpreted this in a different way than Murdoch and some others did. As for Lightoller, there were a lot of women arriving on the decks to take lifeboat spots. I do believe that Lightoller was unreasonable in not allowing some older boys to get into the boats along with younger children, girls, and women. I think that this is what happened with Rhoda Abbott's sons; Lightoller thought that they were too old -- he wanted to separate Mrs. Abbott's sons from their mother. Mrs. Abbott thought that was intolerable; she wanted to keep her family together -- can you blame her? I know that Arthur Ryerson had problems with Lightoller getting his 11 year old son into a lifeboat; he had to insist and finally Lightoller allowed the child in with his mother and sisters. It seems that the port side was a lot more crowded than the starboard side. That is understandable given that the ship was listing to starbboard so more people would climb up to the port side.

On the starboard side, Murdoch was allowing men into the boats when he couldn't find any women or children. Perhaps he could have waited a bit or else he could have gone down into steerage to see if any women or children were available. And actually, I believe that he did because a whole group of Lebanese steerage women, many who didn't speak English, were loaded onto Collapsible C -- I believe that Murdoch went and found them to load in. But as I said, the ship was listing to starboard, so there didn't seem to be as many people on starboard as there were on the port side. On the other hand, there were steerage passengers still making their way up to the boat decks on both sides.

The main problem with the differences between what Murdoch allowed and what Lightoller allowed is that there was no set policy. Each officer was left on his own to interpret the Captain's orders and there were different situations and different interpretations.

First, you dislike Hichens because he had a tiff with a women Molly Brown because Hichens never went back, but only one lifeboat went back.

As for Hichens, he was very demanding and rude. There was an ethical dilemma about whether his lifeboat should go back. Mrs. Brown believed that the lifeboat should go back and so did many of the other women passengers. I believe that Mrs. Brown was correct. I'm not saying that the boat could have saved all of the swimmers. But they could have saved one or two at least.

As for Major Peuchen, Lightoller ordered him onto the boat because he had previous sea experiences (going on his large yacht) and Lightoller thought that another experienced seaman should be on the boat. Peuchen tried to use some of his experience to suggest that Hichens should take an oar (as Peuchen was doing) and allow one of the women to handle the tiller. Hichens blew up at Peuchen. At one point, Hichen's yelling and swearing got so loud that Mrs. Brown said that she would throw him overboard if he wouldn't shut up. Hichens finally quieted down.

Secondly, you hate Ismay because he was a male that survive.

Again, another erroneous generalization. I have never said that I "hate" Ismay at all, nor did I ever say that he didn't deserve to be saved because he was a man. My views about Ismay, as I stated above, are based on the fact that Ismay was truly a White Stars Line official and didn't fit into that fiction about being merely a passenger.

When your own life is at stake, you don't worry about strangers lives but your own. Pretty sure Ismay were thinking this at that time. I would had too thought of myself and my immediate family in a life and death situation.

Then why didn't Murdoch, Captain Smith, or many of the people (in all classes) who stepped back so that others could be saved -- why didn't they just rush into the lifeboats and push all those who were in the way out of the way? Believe it or not, some people really do worry about other lives, including lives of strangers, rather than just their own.

[edited to correct my statements of Ismay being a "ship's officer". Instead, I listed him as a White Star Line official, as the owner of the White Star Line]

[shipbuilder]

nboal
By insisting that Ismay was an officer only shows that you have little or zero knowledge of what sea life was like! Ismay WAS NOT AN OFFICER. How could he have been, he was totally unqualified in anything to do with the practical operation of a ship. He could not have been an officer on a 900 ton collier, let alone TITANIC!

Also, very few of you seem to have much idea about lifeboat capacity. If a lifeboat is certified for 100 passengers, it does not mean they cannot take more if the need arose. I know it is not safe to lower them with more than that number, but once in the water, you can double their capacity. This is not a figment of my imagination. On one passenger ship that I served aboard, the port side boats were lowered into Cape Town harbour filled to capacity with crew members. Then the captain would then order half of them to get in the ones already filled to official capacity and guess what? they all fitted - if somewhat crowded.

There were never enough deck officers for one to take charge of each boat, but most of the other officers and crew took practical examinations in the launching and command of lifeboats. I was myself so qualified, although I was never required to perform that duty.

Launching a boat in 1912 with rope falls was a dangerous matter at the best of times and I don't think many "self-styled" experts could have managed better.

Anyone who insists Ismay was an officer, is hardly qualified to even venture an opinion on what should or shouldn't have hapenned!

Bob

[MAB]

Anyone who insists Ismay was an officer, is hardly qualified to even venture an opinion on what should or shouldn't have hapenned!

Moderator's hat on:

Bob, please don't include personal comments about other message board members in your messages. Focus instead on the substance of the message you're responding to.

Moderator's hat off.

[nboal]

I stand corrected. Ismay wasn't really an appointed "officer" as such. But he certainly wasn't a regular passenger. He didn't pay for his ticket; he took the trip as the owner of the White Star Lines. That makes him a lot different than a regular passenger.

[shipbuilder]

Fair enough - Nothing more to say on the matter!
Bob

[nboal]

OK, so which lifeboat would you choose?

We were having some fun with this. But somehow this thread developed into something truly serious.

[wruth03@aol.com]

MAB with all due respect I don't think shipbuilder was meaning to insult anyone personally. The point he was making is that Bruce Ismay was not an officer. That is quite correct Wilde, Murdoch, Lightoller, Pitman, Boxhall, Lowe and Moody were the officers. Ismay was just a passenger on the Titanic. Also why point the finger at Ismay for getting into a lifeboat after all it is not as if he was the only man to do so. Don't forget there were more first class men saved than third class women and children so you could also point the finger at them. The sheer selfishness of Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon and his wife disgust me.
Denise

[MAB]

Fair enough - Nothing more to say on the matter!

Thanks, Bob.

MAB with all due respect I don't think shipbuilder was meaning to insult anyone personally.

Denise, comments like the one Bob made are not allowed here. Period.

[nboal]

MAB with all due respect I don't think shipbuilder was meaning to insult anyone personally. The point he was making is that Bruce Ismay was not an officer. That is quite correct Wilde, Murdoch, Lightoller, Pitman, Boxhall, Lowe and Moody were the officers. Ismay was just a passenger on the Titanic.

I used the wrong word when I said that Ismay was an "officer." Ismay was not an "officer" like Wilde, Murdoch, Lightoller, Pitman, Boxhall, Lowe or Moody. What I wanted to say was that Ismay was no ordinary passenger on the ship. He did not pay for his 1st class ticket. I'm not sure of the word to describe Ismay's position. So I've corrected my posts to read that Ismay was "White Star Lines official." Which is not the same as being a ship's officer. However, it's also not the same as being an ordiinary fare-paying passenger.

Also why point the finger at Ismay for getting into a lifeboat after all it is not as if he was the only man to do so. Don't forget there were more first class men saved than third class women and children so you could also point the finger at them. The sheer selfishness of Sir Cosmo Duff Gordon and his wife disgust me.
Denise

I'm not a huge fan of the Duff Gordons either -- and you can tell that I'm not a huge Ismay fan. There were some unselfish heroes and some people onboard who were selfish.

[George Lorton]

If I was on the Titanic I would probably be to busy trying to get third class kids in boats. Boat 1 could of used some kids since it just had 12 people in it, all adults too. I am sure there were a few other boats that could of used some more pint sized passengers as well but boat 1 springs most readily to my mind.

This is my problem with Ismay. I believe that he had time to go search for a few steerage passengers who were just making their way up to the boat deck and helped them into Collapsible C. Instead, he stepped into Collapsible C and saved himself.

Indeed Nboals, I agree, I've played devil advocate with Ismay and tried to defend him but I always left him leaving other passengers on board alone as there really isn't a defense for that. I guess not everyone is cut out to be a hero which is why we should cherish the ones we got.

I agree with you Bob, that Ismay certainly was not an Officer but I agree with Mark too on his assignment of your comment, you can catch more bees with honey then with vinegar, trust me as I have learned and seen first hand from my own experience the damage a snarky comment could do.

Getting back to Ismay, perhaps if he was an officer he might of stayed to help passengers, Even if he wasn't an officer still he could of stayed to help. I feel the same way about the owners of Triangle Shirtwaist Factory even though it was been pointed out to me that they really didn't do anything wrong i still say that they didn't really do anything right in regards to their employees safety.