First class inviting 3d class to dinner?

[Aly Jones]

How truthful Is this-

1st class passengers inviting 3rd class to dinner? Were 1st class allowed to do such a thing? Which was predicted in 1997 Titanic.

[Titanic_Malaysia]

Hi Aly, it's hard to say, but I seriously doubt that this took place in real-life, knowing the status discrimination at the time...

[VW1956]

Hello. Interesting point but I to feel that this would not have happened for real. Unless the first class passenger was real confident and couldn't careless what other first class passengers felt. But maybe "Molly" Brown if she was like what we read she was like would have done. (Did that make sense). Ken.

[pat toms]

Titanic-Malaysia,Don,t make me laugh only in films,and only De-Caprio could do this it is called artistic liscense i should think but then they can do anything in a film,and now it is just not black and white but in coulour,it could also be grey area.Pat

[Michael H. Standart]

In reality, it wouldn't have happened as the 3rd class wasn't permitted in either the 2cnd or 1st class areas. It made a nice plot device in a movie but that was it.

[pat toms]

Michael, Yes I am glad that you gave your decision on the Class and meal times,the lower classes could not have eaten the first class meals as there stomachs could not have taken it anyway. Pat

[VW1956]

Hello Michael. Are you saying that it wouldn't have happened or couldn't have happened? Surposing J J Astor had invited a third class passenger for dinner. (An extreme case I know) Who would have told him that he cannot bring this person into the first class dining area? Ken.

[Eric K. Longo]

Hi Ken,

There might be health related immigration regulations of the time that would prevent such an occurrence. That's my .02 cents. Are the pics of your trip posted yet?

Best wishes,
Eric

[Titanic_Malaysia]

Yup, that is indeed an extreme case, Ken... But even if Mr. Astor had really brought a 3rd-class friend of his on board, I think the invitation card or even signage in the 1st-class dining room would have stated that lower-class people were prohibited from entering... And like what Eric said, health reasons may be another factor as well...

I cannot imagine such a scenario happening on the cruise ships and ocean liners of today, to be honest... In most present-day ships, I can say that everyone, regardless of class / gender / cabin type / etc. can mingle with one another in ALL areas of the vessel... Whether it's the casino, restaurants, swimming pool, main lobby, or leisure areas, no one area is out of bounds to passengers, except for the boiler room and "Crow's Nest"!

If you say segregation, the only way people are differentiated in today's ships are just based on the cabin they are staying in, whether a windowless "standard" stateroom or the luxury suite, lol!

[Eric K. Longo]

I cannot imagine such a scenario happening on the cruise ships and ocean liners of today, to be honest... In most present-day ships, I can say that everyone, regardless of class / gender / cabin type / etc. can mingle with one another in ALL areas of the vessel... Whether it's the casino, restaurants, swimming pool, main lobby, or leisure areas, no one area is out of bounds to passengers, except for the boiler room and "Crow's Nest"!

Hello TM,

I don't think so....

Best,
Eric

[David G. Brown]

Class distinctions were greater in society of 1912 than today, true. However, it is a major temprocentric error to assume these differences were the reasons why third class could not visit first or second class accommodations. The two upper classes were for business and pleasure travelers. Third class in westbound ships had a completely different purpose -- immigration to the United States.

This is why U.S. immigration regulations vis-a-vis Ellis Island impacted shipboard life. Third class was legally "immigrant class." Passengers in third class received a rudimentary health check before boarding. Once on the ship, U.S. regulations required immigrants be kept separate from other passengers during the voyage, supposedly for health reasons. From the ship immigrants went straight to Ellis Island (if arriving New York) and a days later were U.S. citizens. First and Second class passengers had to go through the normal customs and immigration entry procedures for visitors, including passport and visa checks.

Those health checks before boarding often did more harm than good as inspectors did not follow the sterile procedures we use these days. Even so, White Star and other lines had an interest in the health of their passengers. Anyone of any class found by U.S. authorities to be "diseased" could be refused entry into the country. If that happened, the shipping line had the duty to return them to their port of embarkation -- with or without monetary compensation. Technically, this is still true today for airlines and passenger ships. Many countries require companies hauling inbound passengers to post a bond to cover the cost of returning unwanted visitors to their homes.

Violations of immigration law could have drastic economic consequences for the shipping line. At worst, the entire ship could have been refused entry and sent back to whence it came. Or, it could have been "quarantined" -- forced to anchor -- for a period of time while officials waited for any signs of disease to appear among the passengers and crew. So, White Star and other operators of "immigrant ships" were reasonably strict in enforcing the sepration of imigrant class from other passengers.

Many immigrants were almost pennyless when they left Ellis Island to begin their new lives in America. However, that was not a requirement for being in third class. Lots of immigrants came with enough cash (usually gold) strapped to their bodies to pay for farms, start retail stores, or establish manufacturing plants. Third class was the most efficient path to U.S. citizenship and accomplishing their dreams.

-- David G. Brown

[Aaron2010]

The majority of 3rd class were at the stern (where the cranes were) when the lifeboats were being lowered. There was a small gate that stopped people from getting onto the 2nd class promenade deck. A 2nd class passenger called Lawrence Beesley liked to watch people in 3rd class during the voyage. This is what he said:

"Another interesting man was travelling steerage, but had placed his wife in the second cabin. He would climb the stairs leading from the steerage to the second deck and talk affectionately with his wife across the low gate which separated them. I never saw him after the collision, but I think his wife was on the Carpathia."

When the ship was sinking 3rd class passenger Olaus Abelseth was at the stern. He said:

"There were a lot of steerage people there that were getting on one of these cranes that they had on deck....These steerage passengers were crawling along on this, over the railing, and away up to the boat deck. A lot of them were doing that."

He was asked these questions:

Question - They could not get up there in any other way?
Answer - This gate was shut.

Question - Was it locked?
Answer - I do not know whether it was locked, but it was shut so that they could not go that way. A while later these girls were standing there, and one of the officers came and hollered for all of the ladies to come up on the boat deck. The gate was opened and these two girls went up. We stayed a little while longer, and then they said, "Everybody." I do not know who that was, but I think it was some of the officers that said it. I could not say that, but it was somebody that said "everybody." We went up."

When the Titanic was starting to break in two, a survivor called Charles Joughin said there were "many hundreds" of people still at the stern where the cranes were.


.

[VW1956]

Hello Eric. My pictures are not on here yet. I am sure Andrew is on top of it. Theres so much happening on this site lately. Ken.

[Aly Jones]

The gates were small? The gates ondeck that seperated the 2nd and 3rd class, then why couldn't the 3rd class climb overthem! And 3rd class climbing on Carins to bypass the gates to reach boatdeck and lifeboats without officers drawing their pistols. Maybe the officers were not trigger happy at all. The 3rd class could had climb over the gate, the officers (by the sounds of it) did not have any intentions of shooting passengers down if they tried to enter boatdeck.

[VW1956]

Hello Aly. From what I have read in various books the gates were small gates being about 3 feet ( 1 metre ) in height but I believe that there were two that were full height that divided different classes. And I think that you have been watching to many American cop shows as I am sure that none of the officers were trigger happy that night. They certainly did not have any intention of shooting any passengers. Although a few officers might have had other ideas about shooting the captain for not slowing down. I firmly believe that any shooting that was done was aimed into the air and then only done as the options were fast running out. They were not just officers, but officers on the finest ship in the world. They were the best, but on this night they had reached there limits. RIP all of them. Ken.