"Hard a starboard" and related subjects

[Aly Jones]

But, why did they think they could had avoided the berg by turning when they knew they were to close to the berg? They knew appox how long it took for her to stop , how long for her to turn ect... Olympic were going for a whole year before titanic disaster. So why we're they going to fast knowing that titanic could not avoid if something happen to be dead straight of her? They knew they were going to fast for titanic to react in time to avoid such a disaster.

[David G. Brown]

For a century now people have been debating how Titanic's accident happened. It is understandable that there are no absolute answers to all of the possible questions. Death robbed us of so many critical witnesses and neither inquiry was all that helpful in pinning down key elements. But, if after 100 years conventional wisdom of a short time span between spotting of the berg and holes in the hull has be be suspect. In fact, debate such as this only takes place when all of the facts of any case are not known, or the underlying assumptions of the debate are wrong. If this were not the case, there would be no room for arugment in the face of the weight of evidence and assumptions would be unnecessary. Bluntly, conventional wisdom about 37 or 45 seconds between first spotting of the iceberg and impact cannot be even close to what happened. If this wham-bam scenerio were true, then this thread would unnecessary. It's time to forget all the business of 37 seconds, and "porting around. Obviously, those assumptions arent true or there would be no room debate.

-- David G. Brown

[Aly Jones]

Didn't they test Olympic (over a year) and Titanic (just before voyage, on her sea trials) with their turning ability and how long it took before they came to a complete stop?

[nboal]

It would be best they didn't turn at all then.

*Nodding my head up and down*. we all know the hull was built for a head-on crash (History proves this) it was the attempt to avoid the collision by swerving that doomed her. I don't even believe the theory of 'small rudder to big of a ship' anymore.

I read on a site (forget which one) that theorized that, the Titanic, traveling at 23 knots: if she had hit the iceberg head-on, the entire bow section would have been crushed. The ship would have taken minutes, not hours, to sink. This seems like it might be a viable theory.

[ardtornish]

That's the point Aly!

They knew exactly how Titanic would perform under certain circumstances, However, they saw that iceberg at the very last moment. The efforts to avoid it were mainly gut-reaction on the part of Murdoch. i.e he had to do something and in any case, he would not know exactly how far ahead the iceberg was. On such a night, it was lucky they saw it at all.
Captain Rostron almost hit exactly the same iceberg. His slower speed and many more sets of eyes saved his ship... not skill or awareness.

Ard.

[Aaron2010]

The Carpathia was steaming at full speed and dodging icebergs all night. He said he spotted the icebergs before his lookouts did.

In his words:

"We saw all the icebergs first from the bridge. Either one of my officers or myself, before the look-outs."

"We were passing icebergs on every side and making them ahead and having to alter our course several times to clear the bergs"

"I also saw icebergs all around me. There were about 20 icebergs that would be anywhere from about 150 to 200 feet high and numerous smaller bergs"


"I can only tell you this, gentlemen, I knew there was ice about."

Question - How did you know it?
Answer - From the Titanic.

Question - From the Titanic's message?
Answer - Precisely. He told me he had struck ice.

Question - Did you know it any other way?
Answer - No sir, that was the first intimation I had that there was ice there.

"At a quarter to three I saw what we knew was an iceberg by the light from a star. I saw a streak of light right on the iceberg. We saw it, I cannot say the distance off, but some distance, not very far, and from then on till four o’clock we were altering our course very often to avoid the bergs. At four o’clock I considered I was practically up to the position, and I stopped, at about five minutes after four. In the meantime I had been firing rockets and the Company’s signals every time we saw this green light again. At five minutes past four I saw the green light again, and I was going to pick the boat up on the port bow, but just as it showed the green light I saw an iceberg right ahead of me. It was very close, so I had to port my helm hard-a-starboard and put her head round quick and pick up the boat on the starboard side."

Question - How close was the iceberg which you saw?
Answer - Well, when we had stopped, when daylight broke, it was something less than a quarter of a mile away.

Question - Was that the first iceberg that you had seen?
Answer - Oh, dear, no.

Question - I mean, on this particular night?
Answer - Oh no, the first iceberg we saw was at a quarter to three.

Question - I wanted you to tell us about that. You saw one at a quarter to three?
Answer - We saw about half a dozen, in fact, more than that. I was moving about to get between them up to four o’clock.

Question - Take the first one you saw about a quarter to three. How far off was it when you first saw it, when it was reported to you?
Answer - I should think it was about a mile and a half to two miles away.

Question - And with regard to the others, I think you say you saw about six up to four o’clock?
Answer - Yes, about six.

Question - Did you see all those at about the same distance?
Answer - Yes, about the same distance, from one to two miles.

Question - Then, I understand, when you came to the last one, you will correct this if I am wrong, as far as I gather from your evidence, you did not see that till it was somewhere about a quarter of a mile off?
Answer - That is so, at daybreak I saw it was between 25 and 30 feet high.

Question - Will you explain to us a little more in detail why it was that you did not see this iceberg, the one which you found about 4 o’clock, earlier?
Answer - I cannot tell you, we were all on the look-out.

Question - It was rather low?
Answer - It was low.

Question - Your two men were on the look-out then in the eyes of the vessel?
Answer - Yes.

Question - No report had been made to you?
Answer - No.

Question - Who was it saw it first, do you know?
Answer - Yes, I saw it first.

Question - Before the look-out men?
Answer - Yes, we saw all the icebergs first from the bridge.

Question - And each time, if I follow you, that an iceberg was seen, you picked it up first on your bridge?
Answer - Either one of my officers or myself, before the look-outs.

Question - Did you pick it up by sight, or by naked eye, or with binoculars?
Answer - At first with the naked eye.

Question - How was it neither of the look-out men saw it or reported it to you? Why did not they see it before you?
Answer - Well, of course, they had all had warning about keeping a look-out for growlers and icebergs, previous to going on the look-out, and on the look-out also. You must understand, unless you know what you are looking for, if you see some very dim indistinct shape of some kind, anyone could take that as nothing at all, merely some shadow upon the water, or something of that kind, but people with experience of ice know what to look for, and can at once distinguish that it is a separate object on the water, and it must be only one thing, and that is ice.

Question - So that what it really comes to is this, if I follow you correctly, that it requires a man with some knowledge of icebergs, some experience of picking them up before he can detect them at night?
Answer - Precisely.



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[David G. Brown]

The conventional wisdom of Titanic's lookouts spotting the fatal berg within a minute of impact is pure balderdash.

From the testimony, Lee and Fleet -- and particularly Fleet -- never specified how long it was between when they first spotted the berg and the moment of impact. Fleet, of course, tried to tell Senator Smith that he could not tell the difference between the passage of a minute or an hour. That's how hard he tried to dodge the subject.

The only third party evidence on the duration of time between the three strikes on the lookout's bell and impact came from seaman Scarrott. He was quite specific that "five to eight minutes" elapsed from bell to accident. And, to date there has been no contemporaneous evidence to refute what Scarrott said. None. His words stand in stark contrast to the nonsensical 37 to 45 seconds between bell and bert. Five to eight minutes.

That means Titanic's lookouts did at least as well, and probably better than the vaunted performance of Rostron and his crew in Carpathia. Fleet and Lee spotted and reported their ship's nemisis berg five to eight minutes before impact. The did that because they were well enough trained to know that the silhouette of an object against a light background is just as valid in terms of detecting danger as observing the surface in reflected light. This is why they described the berg as a "black mass" when it was first reported to the bridge (as Scarrott said) some five to eight minutes prior to impact.

-- David G. Brown

[Aly Jones]

Qoute I read on a site (forget which one) that theorized that, the Titanic, traveling at 23 knots: if she had hit the iceberg head-on, the entire bow section would have been crushed. The ship would have taken minutes, not hours, to sink. This seems like it might be a viable theory.end quote.

Many ships had head on collisions and many ships had survive. Do you think a head-on collision would damage more than 4 compartments? Titanic were slowing down from 23knots! Anyways, we will never know for sure but titanic would had a better chance at a head-on than what she did endured.

Quote Ard
Captain Rostron almost hit exactly the same iceberg. His slower speed and many more sets of eyes saved his ship... not skill or awareness. End quote.

Speed kills! Hey Ard same as on our roads--- If you speed and drive, your a bloody IDOIT. It's a shame that those slogans were not around in 1912.

[ardtornish]

David,

You wrote:

"The conventional wisdom of Titanic's lookouts spotting the fatal berg within a minute of impact is pure balderdash"

I would have thought that the following is more than enough proof for anyone that the lookout saw the berg, rang the bells and then called the bridge:

Mr. FLEET.
I reported it as soon as ever I seen it.

Mr. FLEET.
I struck three bells first. Then I went straight to the telephone and rang them up on the bridge.


Mr. OSMAN.
I was waiting for one bell, which they strike, one bell just before the quarter of the hour, before the four hours, when you get a call to relieve; and I heard three bells strike, and I thought there was a ship ahead. Just after that I heard the collision

REGINALD LEE...LOOKOUT.
"- The first thing that was reported was after seven bells struck; it was some minutes, it might have been nine or ten minutes afterwards. Three bells were struck by Fleet, warning "Right ahead," and immediately he rung the telephone up to the bridge, "Iceberg right ahead." The reply came back from the bridge, "Thank you."

However, if that's not enough, what about Boxhall hearing the bells then feeling the impact after he walked 40 feet?

Then of course there's the man who was at the very center of things... Quartermaster Hichens:

"973. How long was that [the sounding of the 3 bell warning] before the order came "Hard-a-starboard"?
- Well, as near as I can tell you, about half a minute."
About 'half a minute does not mean 30 seconds but is the normal way for a UK person to convey a very short period of time.
The other way of saying it is "half a mo."

Against the foregoing, you are ranging the words of one person.... AB Scarrott

"343. How soon did you feel this vibration after you heard the three strikes on the gong?
- As I did not take much notice of the three strikes on the gong, I could hardly recollect the time; but I should think it was - well, we will say about five or eight minutes; it seemed to me about that time."

Not a positive statement by any means. In fact rather vague.
Compared to the witnesses above, the man actually admits to not taking much notice of the time. He then 'makes a stab' at guessing the time interval... "we will say about five or eight minutes"
I wouldn't like to depend on a man like that telling me how long it was until the bomb went off. Would you?

Ard.

[Aaron2010]

I think the collision happened a long time after the lookouts rang the bell. If it was just seconds away then why did Lookout Lee say it was around half a mile away and why did Lookout Fleet dodge the question entirely? It was probably the most important question of the whole disaster, and he totally refused to answer it.


Frederick Fleet

Question - How long before the collision or accident did you report ice ahead?
Answer - I have no idea.

Question - Would you be willing to say that you reported the presence of this iceberg an hour before the collision?
Answer - No, sir.

Question - Forty-five minutes?
Answer - No. sir.

Question - A half hour before?
Answer - No, sir.

Question - Fifteen minutes before?
Answer - No, sir.

Question - Ten minutes before?
Answer - No, sir.

Question - How far away was this black mass when you first saw it?
Answer - I have no idea, sir.


So it could have been absolutely anything! If it was just seconds away, he should have said it. Remember Fleet and Hichens were in the same lifeboat together and another survivor saw them talking about the collision. Fleet said nobody answered the telephone and Hichens wanted to know which officer was on the bridge. It is quite clear that something very strange happened. They also appeared in court on the same day, so they could hear each others answers amd stick with the same story (the story which was probably invented by the White Star Line).


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[Aly Jones]

James moody answered the phone. It were in many testimonies.

[ardtornish]

Hello Aaron,

I presume you have read my last reply to David.

The majority of the witnesses point to a sequence of "Bells followed immediately by Phone".

If the lookouts saw the iceberg half a mile away, then they saw it 1 minute 20 seconds before impact. The evidence would then suggest that they waited about 1 minute 10 seconds before they phoned the bridge.
It follows that one of two things happened:

A: they saw the icberg or rather a dark shape right ahead when it was half a mile away and waited until they were absolutely sure of what they were seeing before phoning the bridge or....

B: It was a fine night, they were winding-down for the end of their Watch and nattering (as lookouts will do) and saw it too late.

Given the evidence of Captains Rostron and Lord regarding the visibility of ice that night, your idea of 'half a mile away' is perfectly reasonable.
However, the evidence of Boxhall and the lookouts points to a joined-up bells and impact.

If Hichens's evidence of 'half a minute' literally meant 30 seconds, then the iceberg was about 1100 feet ahead of the ship when they first saw the dark 'something' right ahead and reported it by ringing the bells.
20 seconds later they could clearly identify it as an iceberg. Before then it could have been a floating derelict or another ship without lights etc.

If Boxhall covered a distance of about 30 feet between bells and impact then the evidence of the Lookouts is exactly right because Boxhall would have covered that distance in about 7 seconds... just a little more than it took to put the helm hard- over to the left.
However, if he was itting in his cabin having a cup of tea when he heard the bells (he said this in 1962) then the story told by QM Robert Hichens is closest to the truth.

You and others should ask the question:

If the Lookouts saw "a dark shape" at first. When were they able to be sure about what they were seeing and make the urgent report.."iceberg right ahead"?

What ever did happen, there was a serious doubt in the mind of the Wreck Commissioner as to the truthfulness of the evidence of at least one of the Lookouts.

"The Commissioner:
Yes, I will tell you at once. My impression is this, that the man [Lee] was trying to make an excuse for not seeing the iceberg, and he thought he could make it out[get away with it] by creating a thick haze."

I am also inclined to think that their awkward silence and their ambiguous answers to questions points to them feeling guilt that somehow they could have done more than they did....should have called the bridge a little bit earlier.

Notwithstanding the foregoing; First Officer Murdoch would scan the horizon with his binoculars the minute these bells were sounded. He would be looking in exactly the right direction with enhanced vision and would recognise the ice for what it was sooner than the Lookouts. Binoculars gather the slightest amount of reflected light.

What is beyond question, is the fact that Titanic did not start changing direction until 6 seconds before she actually hit the iceberg.

Ard.

[Aaron2010]

I wonder what the lookouts said to each other when they saw the iceberg. Was it like this:

Fleet sees a black object ahead but he isn't sure what it is. He asks Lee if he can also see it. Lee sees nothing and tells Fleet to wake up. Fleet looks away and they both scan the horizon again. Fleet sees it again but much closer and he points at it. Lee sees it as well. Fleet rings the bell.


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[ardtornish]

My best guess is:

"Bloody-hell! *##/8&/##*~ or ;

.

Ard.

[VW1956]

Hello. Well if a certain film is to be believed then they were both very busy watching Jack and Rose. Ken.